Clip detection

I want to detect when the signal on the mix bus is about to clip, to be able to indicate it in the UI.

I initially intended to use the Elliot Sound Products clip detection circuit to do bipolar detection:

There are a few issues with this though. First of all, the output after the diodes is 0-10V, which is too high to be used directly with the mcu inputs.

 Second, as I will not interface this directly with the mcu, but rather with the PCA9539 port expander, it won't trigger an interrupt. Instead, I have to poll the signal - so I need to latch the state whenever a clipping pulse is received, and reset state after I've read it.

It is possible to make an SR-latch using an op amp, as described here https://www.radiolocman.com/shem/schematics.html?di=463517 and here https://www.edn.com/use-an-op-amp-as-a-set-reset-flip-flop/

 After a bit of fiddling with my simulation, I was able to come up with this circuit:

The output of the comparator op amps is +/- 10.4 approx. This is dropped to around 0-9.8 through the diodes. R3 and R4 divides the signal down to around 3.3V. It is then buffered, and inserted into the latch through the diode (dropping an additional 0.6V). R15 and R16 sets the value seen at the negative pole of the last op amp when in2 (reset signal) is turned off. R14 adjusts the reset voltage so we're able to reset the latch, and D3, R17 and R18 reduces the output from +/-10.4V to 0-3v3, ready for the MCU.

After even more fiddling, trying to reduce the number of components, I ended up with this:

It works just as well as the previous one.

Green: input at positive terminal of the right op amp. Blue: Reset signal. Red: latch output

 

Now, I did a lot of testing with this circuit and it has one big issue. At frequencies of around 5kHz (with a triangle input) the comparators are too slow, so the peaks are not high or long enough to properly set the latch. As we get closer to 20kHz it simply stops working. If I lower the detection voltage (replace the 1k resistors with 2k2 for example), it works, but the clipping voltage level changes with frequency. That's not very good - though it may be GOOD ENOUGH.

Enter V2.

Let's do this the proper way.

By replacing the op amps with LM311 comparators, and the op amp-based latch with a real latch, CD4043, things work fine all the way up to 20kHz+:

The 10pF caps are not necessary, and the 10k/100k/10k voltage divider at the input can be replaced with 1k/10k/1k.

The CD4043 is driven from a 3v3/GND PSU, so level shifting is not necessary.

 

An imporant thing to note here is that the top comparator has the collector (pin 7) connected to 3v3 and the emitter (pin 1) connected to GND through a 10k resistor. In this configuration, the output (connected to pin 1) will be high whenever the voltage at the negative input (3) - our signal - is higher than the voltage we compare against (2, 10V), and the voltage range is 0 to 2.7 approx. CMOS inputs are considered ON when the voltage is > 2V (for 3v3 supplies) so this is fine.

For the bottom comparator, the collector is connected to 3v3 through a 10k resistor and the emitter is grounded. The output (connected to pin 7 this time) is positive whenever the voltage at the negative input (3) - our signal - is lower than the voltage we compare against (2, -10V).

As the signals are fed into different latches (there are four available in one CD4043), we actually have separate clipping indicators that we could read if we wanted to. This is not necessary for my use, so I simply combine them using two diodes (again, dropping the voltage, but it still works with the PCA9539).

Positive clipping only

Negative clipping only

 

 

 

Some action shots

White = reset signal
Brown = clipping state, as seen by microcontroller
Orange = output from CD4043 comparator (v2)
Red = output from LM311 comparator for high clipping
Blue = output from op amp latch (v1)
Yellow = input signal from function generator

4.8Hz input, says 19.5Vpp on function generator (fg) but is about 20Vpp measured. Both versions trigger

48Hz, 19.4Vpp on fg. Both versions trigger

517Hz, 19.4Vpp on fg. Only v2 triggers.

517Hz, 19.5Vpp on fg. Both versions trigger again.

5kHz, 19.4Vpp on fg. Vmax is > 10V so both should trigger. Only v2 triggers

5kHz. We have to go all the way to 20.1Vpp on the fg to get v1 to trigger

10kHz, have to increase to 20.5Vpp on fg to get v1 to trigger

20kHz, v1 doesn't trigger even at 20.9Vpp on fg

Testing calibration circuit

Max output of signal generator is +/-10.4V

Is attenuated and shifted to -0.3/+4.7V (inverted), so a full range input gives a 0-5V output, meaning we can compare bipolar amplitude of the whole signal using a 0-5V CV.

Input CV is 0 to 5V (or slightly less, around 4.6V as we're using a 47k/33k voltage divider from -10.8V)

10k pullup to +12V initially

Approx 2.5V CV gives the expected 50/50 duty cycle on the output

Rise time on output (with probe connected) is 1.5uS (with scope connected in parallel, rise time increases to 6uS). This is with a 12V output

 

Reducing CV to 0 completely turns off output

A signal that is always less than the comparator CV leaves the output fully on

A 3v3 pullup voltage (compatible with the teensy) gives a rise time of around 2.5uS when using a 10k resistor.

A 1k resistor instead gives a rise time of 560nS:

Something to remember: When doing comparisons on a slow moving signal, we may get multiple triggers during the transition. Here we compare a 8Hz triangle wave:

If we use a square wave instead, it cleans up - meaning frequency counting should be done using square waves (unless using hysteresis). This is a challenge if we intend to use resonance sine wave for frequency tuning the filter.

On the Logic16 probes I get double triggers even when sinewave frequency is as high as 10kHz (with the 1k resistor.

With the 10k resistor it seems that we're fine all the way down to 100Hz, some double triggering at 50Hz.

My thought is - double triggering is mostly important for frequency counting, which, when done with a square wave seems to work fine from at least 10Hz to 30kHz (probably even further) with a 10k resistor

For other cases we mostly want to do amplitude calibration, which does not care about doble triggers.

We do get a bit of ringing on the attenuated square wave input at 30kHz, let's see if we can remove it with a LPF:

When we put a 22pF cap in parallel with the 25k feedback resistor, we get this (cutoff is slightly less than 300kHz:

Hysteresis

With a 100k resistor from pin 2 to 7 (positive feedback) on the comparator, while still using the resistor divider on the CV input, we get a stable comparator even as low as 2.5Hz. However, the comparator CV changes wildly from 2.2 to 2.7V during switching:

When removing the voltage divider and just using the output from the CV buffer, the CV stays still but the double triggering is back:

But when removing the 100k resistor completely and just using the raw buffered CV, we reduced doble triggering to almost 0 even at 8Hz:

Then, with a 10pF cap in the positive feedback (between 2 and 7), double triggering disappeared completely, even at 1.5Hz

 

The output rise time however is increased to around 3uS:

Though - checking again without the cap but with direct CV buffer input, it still seems like the rise time is around 2.5uS. That means that adding the 10pF cap does not significantly increase the rise time.

Using a 50pF cap instead gives an even better result, but gives a rise time of 6uS.

Conclusion

There are a lot of unknowns when it comes to capacitance here, there may be capacitances on the breadboard that messes with my result. Even so, I think I'll try with the 10pF cap on the voice board.

EDIT:

Oooh, we have a serious issue here. The edge is not fast enough for the teensy, we get several interrupts per transition.

Even worse, once I remove the Logic 16 probe, we get a dramatic increase in interrupts, meaning the probe's capacitance filtered out a lot of noise. I need to revisit the hysteresis idea I think :-/

TODO: 

Check if hysteresis is available on the TCA9539, and if we can do frequency counting at 20kHz with the TCA9539. If not, we need to connect calibration directly to a pin on the teensy